EXPLAINS ALGERIAN REVOLUTION TO CANADIANS
[Following a trip to Algeria last summer, Ross Dowson, editor of The Workers' Vanguard, a Toronto socialist publication, made a cross~ country trip during which he was interviewed on radio stations in various cities, In Vancouver, he appeared for an hour and a half on CKIG's Don Wilson program, a popular feature among West Coast listeners.
[Since Dowson is a well-known Canadian Trotskyist leader, the questions asked him in his various interviews ranged over a number of topics. The liveliest interest, however, centered on his report of the Algerian Revolution.
[The transcript of the interview over CKIG, which we have just. received, illustrates the response, It includes questions telephoned to the station as the interview proceeded, Below we publish extensive excerpts, -- Editor, ]
[After some preliminary questions and answers about Dowson's electoral activities in Canada and his views on Canadian politics, Mr. Wilson turned to Trotskyism and its relation to the Soviet Union. The conversation dealt with the problem of workers't democracy, de-Stalinization and the concessions granted by Khrushchev in response to popular pressures, |
Wilson: You keep referring to Soviet democracy and the manner in which you refer to it indicates you believe there is no such thing existing at the present time, Do you think democracy can exist under a state where you-have pretty well rigid one=party control?
Dowson: Well, Itm opposed to one-party control, I believe in a multiplicity of parties insofar as they would defend the economy and the state against capitalist encroachments. But I was in Algeria and I must tell you I saw workers! control and workers! management in operation, It does work, Unchallengeably so.
Wilson: Now getting to Algeria for a moment. You say that you have seen in operation a workers! democracy. What form of government is operative in Algeria at the present time? ee.
Dowson: Ben Bella heads the Constituent Assembly. It came out of a referendum which okayed the Evian agreement and they're now in the process of setting up a popular democracy, When I was there I went to some of the big projects they have, The state’ has taken over "some 3,000,000 acres of the most lush land not far from Algiers, This land was fvacated. " Much of it had not been utilized for five, six years and on their own initiative the peasants went in and they started to work this land. This land is now. under workers! management, They've elected popular organs of control,
Wilson: There is no actual individual ownership of land then?
Dowson: No, not in this big sector. This is not complete, of course, right through Algeria. But this is one of the key sectors, a most fertile
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area, called the Mitidja valley, It reminded me of the Okanagan valley here in B.C. [British Columbia] when I saw it -- a very fertile area which had been under the control of extremely wealthy colons ~- French land owners == most of whom had left in the last period, particularly during the oas [Secret Army Organization] terror campaign.
Wilson: You were pointing out to me earlier this afternoon that you were in Algeria because of a conference called, I think, by Ben Bella, to seek forms of aid for Algeria -- you called it Non-Governmental Aid. Would you like to elaborate on that a bit?
The Aid Conference
Dowson: The conference wasn't exactly called by Ben Bella, He appeared at some of the sessions and warmly identified himself with the conference, But it was called by various persons who over the years, even during the civil war, had identified themselves with the Algerian freedom struggle, They were given facilities with which to hold the conference, There were very eminent persons in attendance at the conference, Bertrand Russell sent his greetings to the conference but was unable to attend, Jenny Lee had intended to attend but, as you know, the Profumo scandal came up and there was a possibility of a British government crisis, Some eminent intellectuals attended such as Lelio Basso, who was the general secretary of the Socialist party of Italy, an intellectual of some standing in Italy; Claude Bourdet and Daniel Guerin, very important French intellectuals; two British Labour party MPts; the editors of Peace News, of Union Voice, of New Left Review -- a considerable gathering of persons who have identified themselves with the anti~imperialist struggle.-
Wilson: Let's take a look at de Gaulle's actions in connection with this. What do you think about the situation there?
Dowson:. De Gaulle attempted to stabilize the situation. It was apparent to anybody that the Algerian people were determined, no matter. what terror was launched against them, to win their freedom. De Gaulle recognized this, The war had been extremely long -- seven and a half years I believe --.a very bloody one. I understand that one and a half million Algerians lost their lives. And they were going to struggle to the very end. De Gaulle decided to stabilize the situation and save what he could from the point of view of .French capitalism, There are extremely important and valuable oil fields. discovered.in the desert areas. ~I would imagine he hoped, with stabilization, that maybe certain French financial interests could be maintained in Algeria. . tO
Wilson: Are they being maintained?
Dowson: No. We have a rather interesting phenomenon, Somewhat similar to Cuba. Castro started off as a humanist, as a revolutionary in .. the sense that he was a man of the deed, who wanted to eliminate Batista, but he ended up as a socialist. You might say that Ben Bella, up until a very short while ago, was a nationalist. He was not a socialist, But under the pressure of events and developments -- the masses moved out on those land areas themselves and broke up the period of stalemate -- Ben Bella has moved to the left. He has identified the course of the Algerian
Revolution with socialism.
Yugoslavia in Forefront
Wilson: What part, if any, is the Soviet Union playing or attempting to play, in Algeria at the present time? Obviously they're playing a big part in Cuba. . oe
Dowson: They!re playing no role as far as I am aware in the Algerian struggle at this time, The biggest aid that's gone to Algeria and the aid that's been most warmly appreciated by the Algerians whom I met has come from Yugoslavia. Generally the Soviet Union has not made any extensive trade pacts, although, I might say, there were two Soviet. ‘trade-union representatives at the conference. They were observers, I understand that after the. conference they promised the Ben Bella government a certain © amount. of aid, They promised to send some students to Algeria to participate in work projects, There was a big reconstruction campaign being launched at that time among the student movement and they apparently hadpromised they would send a considerable number of students to participate in this,
Wilson: Now getting down to the basis of all this, Your activities in Algeria were based on your belief and the belief of those present that the day of capitalism is doomed, .There are a lot of people in this country and the United States, and I include myself amongst that number, who would be inclined to disagree with you: very much, if that is your view, Do you feel that there can’ be no hope for the “economy of, we'll say, North | America ~- Canada and the U.S..-- under the system which has created such a tremendous standard of Living? I know it has its faults. I know we have situations existing in the States and Canada -- unemployment, slum conditions, and all these things -- which the majority of us don't favor at.all in any shape or form, These, in our opinion, can be cleaned up, You, I take it, are thoroughly convinced that the situation will never be: righted until capitalism is destroyed? Is that your viewpoint?
Dowson: I would suppose that all of us would like to see the system work, Nobody is born a socialist. I certainly wasn't. I don't believe that this system has any perspective for the great masses of the population. For-instance I myself am convinced that America is going to go socialist. The American people, and the Canadian people, too, are going to come to this realization -- the necessity for it. In Canada, of course, we have extensive unemployment. -I think it is clear that it is chronic unemploy-~ ment, it is developing unemployment. I think we are also all aware of the great danger of nuclear war. And so I believe, I am quite convinced myself, that the Canadian people are going to come to the conviction that there is no way out but to bring socialism to this country. Is Algeria in a iMess't?
Question (taken over the telephone): About three weeks ago on CBC TV there were some reels shown with comments on Algeria. As was shown right there the country is in a mess, [Mr, Wilson asked Dowson if this was his impression.
Dowson: Oh yes! This is true. As a matter of fact that was the reason for the conference, The conference was an attempt to help the. Algerian people to come to grips with this tremendous problem that now ‘confronts them -- the problem of reconstruction. You see, the Algerian - people themselves were deprived of any real participation in the advanced sectors of the economy. They were pushed into the back areas, Even in the Mitidja valley they were merely farm laborers, With the continuation -of the civil war,-and a situation where the French saw they couldn't ‘stabilize things on the old terms, over 800,000 French deserted the country, They were the skilled, the technicians, and the semiskilled, So now Algeria has a problem of filling in this tremendous gap, and of getting the economy rolling again. —
I must say there is, of course, chaos and a "mess" as you say, but I> must say they are really coming to grips with it in a most serious way. They are opening up many idle factories, I went to some of these factories. I saw these factories in operation. People wno had never received any responsibilities of a technical character -- administrative character -for the first time are doing this,
Wilson: There is a great need then for technical help of all kinds there? . ;
.Dowson: That is what the conference was attempting to organize. I understand very shortly in the city of: Montreal, a committee willbe .launched which will attempt to recruit.persons who would like to go toa : Algeria to help to participate in the great reconstruction of the economy there, ; - Ban of Communist Party
Question (taken over the telephone): Mr. Dowson has described Algeria as a socialist and a revolutionary country. He has told us how democratic he thinks the workers! control of the factories is. How come, if it is such a democratic country, and so revolutionary, the government bans the ‘Communist party?
Dowson: Yes, the Communist party is banned. But I must say that the act of banning the Communist party hasn't any relation whatsoever to anti- Communism as we know it.on this continent, which tends to lead to the. suppression of _all minority opinion, to witchehunts and RCMP [Royal Canadian Mounted Police] investigations. You see the Communist party has been , banned on the basis, according to the spokesmen of the government, that they want a one-party government. And they have picked up some of the arguments that Communist parties themselves have put forward to justify the banning of other parties in the Soviet areas. I think mistakenly -quite mistakenly. But the Communist party is not suppressed. As a matter of fact, I saw Henri Alleg who was the editor of the Communist party press for many years in Algeria, and he is now editing a newspaper called Alger Républicain, This paper is openly circulated. It's really an attempt on the part of the FLN [Front de Libération Nationale], mistakenly in my — . opinion, to set up one party and to compel all persons who support the general progress of the revolution to go into this one party.
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question (taken over the telephone): [This question was an extensive one along the following lines: Socialism is government control, People are not going to be free under socialism, Everything is going to be controlled by the government .and we have too much government control now, Freedom of’ ideas, freedom of speech is going to be lost. It will destroy our initiative and we will lose out on TV sets, cars, etc. Socialism wants everybody to be the same and under such a regime we will never know self esteem. |
Workers Gain Control
Dowson: This is a big question. I would like to assure our listeners that socialists have answered these questions many times or they would never have been able to sustain their viewpoint at all. They are somewhat classic questions against socialist views in support of capitalism, You call it private enterprise which is really just a fig leaf to cover the naked form of capitalism, You have identified freedom with private enterprise. Well, you ask a small grocery store owner who has an "A & P™ or © "Stop and Shop" marketeria around the corner how much freedom he has, how much enterprise he is allowed to develop under the pressure of such monopolies,
As for the ordinary working man -- the only real freedom he has is to find an employer who will hire him, And many thousands of workers in Canada today haventt even this freedom -- which of course is a basic freedom -- because without a job you can't sustain your family. You certainly cantt have a TV set you talked about. You can't have a car.
But I would prefer to answer parts of this question on the basis of my experiences in Algeria, There they have instituted socialist forms in an important sector of Algeria, For instance, in a biscuit. ractory, that . I went to. This biscuit factory was operated before under "private enterprise." It was owned by a wealthy French colon who left the factory ~deserted it -- left it inoperative for quite a period.
The workers themselves moved in. Under the socialist concept the workers themselves, who heretofore had worked in this factory, moved in and set it into operation.
I spoke to a woman who was in the management committee and through a translator I learned that under the previous owner -- under free enterprise -- the ordinary workers had only been allowed to work, had only been allowed to have two or three days work a week, Now they are working a forty-hour work week in this factory. Now the workers are able to have sufficient funds in order to meet their basic needs,
I sensed a great freedom in this factory. But they themselves told. me about the situation, They are running the factory. They are deciding matters -- conditions of work, production pace, They haven't lost their TV sets, They haventt lost freedom of expression. As a matter of fact persons who never before had an opportunity to express a single thought in their life before, who came to work, who punched a clock, who did what they were told to do under conditions that were laid down to them -- and went home again to bed and came back again are now interceding in the whole process, They are determining the conditions, They talk very freely -~
let me tell you that. They nave a management conference at any time any group of workers want to hold one, And they discuss detailed problems of this whole shop -- the conditions in the shop, the wage rates -- every. matter, .
They are training one another. When I was at this factory, I was met by a man who was a technician, He was a skilled baker who had a knowledge of plant co-ordination. This man was in charge of five plants. He had been appointed by the government but he had been accepted by the workers councils in these five plants. He was operating on the basis of spending a month in each plant in very close collaboration with one of the workers who had been appointed the director of that plant. He was explaining to this person the entire operation, By this method, they were training cadres to extend the participation of the workers in the industry. This to me is the most meaningful type of democracy that one could possibly — visualize...
Wilson: Now you mention that you felt a sense of freedom, that these people could express themselves whenever they felt like it, How about any. attempt on their part to criticize the government? Have they complete freedom of. political expression? Case of Boudiaf
. Dowson: Yes. My impression is that there is certainly more political freedon in Algeria than I would say we have even in Canada. In Canada we have just had a very unfortunate experience, rather a revelation -- it's fortunate when we know the. truth -~ a revelation of extensive investigations by the ROMP into the private life of individuals, persecution, their harassment from employment that persons have sought. © .
In Algeria I wouldn't attempt to suggest to you that there's no . restrictions of any kind. There are many problems in Algeria, As a matter of fact since I left Algeria there were réports in the press that Boudiaf, who was one of the leaders of the FLN, has been put under house arrest by Ben Bella. Ben Bella announced this bo the Constituent Assembly. What the meaning of this is I am not yet sure. The press have been very skimpy on it, and some of tnem have tried to play it up-as a most ominous action, In my” opinion, if Boudiaf is guilty of plotting against the state, then it's the responsibility of Ben Bella to bring him to the. public par to present the charges. This is an instance which is getting some play in the press,
But generally I would say, from what I saw, there is considerable freedom of . expression. When I was,down in one of the cafes in Algiers I met persons: who spoke both French. and J English well and they told me that one. can meet there all kinds of tendencies, persons of widely varied viewpoints, expressing their views quite openly.
uestion: (taken over the telephone): Wnat is the place of the church in this proposed. socialistic state? ue
_Dowson: I must say it was rather an interesting experience when I was in Algeria, Itm very much interested in telling you some.of my experience.
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In Algeria the Moslem religion prevails. As a matter of fact when I went into Algiers I saw some of the big mosques. They had been returned to Muslims, to the people of Algeria,
In fact the state has brought into play much of the code of the Mus-~ lims -- the Muslim creed. Gambling is forbidden by the Muslim religion. Drinking of alcoholic beverages is forbidden, And so is it in the Algerian state. :
But I would make a statement of the attitude in general of socialists, and the tendency which I represent, toward religion, I would say that socialists, Marxists, believe that religion is a personal matter, They are very much opposed to any form of religious persecution, of any tendency, any religious belief, in any form whatsoever. They do, however, believe — that the church should not be a vested interest in society, shouldn't be a property owner; so, therefore, they are firmly on the side of freedom of religion. Khrushchev and Trotskyism
uestion (taken over the telephone): I think the signing of this nuclear test-ban agreement is a great step forward in the prevention of nuclear war. Mr. Dowson might comment on that. I agree with Mr, Khrush-. chev on this peaceful coexistence business. I wondered if Trotskyism had any role to play in the dispute between China and the Soviet Union, I'd like to ask your. guest if he is a Trotskyist?
Wilson: The third part of your question hr. Dowson already answered at the start of the broadcast when he indicated, that is, what ne might be called, Is there such a thing as a Trotskyite party?
Dowson: In many countries of the world there are Trotskyist parties, There is an international called the Fourth International to which many groups and parties calling themselves Trotskyist adhere.
‘Wilson: Getting back to the first part of the question. She mentioned the initialing of this test ban. Do you think Khrushchev is sincere in signing this agreement or do you think that he!s been forced into the situation because of the growing attitude of hostility to his regime by the Chinese Communists? Do you think there is any Trotskyist influence? Do you think there is any Trotskyite influence in Russia today that you know of? Has that been exterminated or is there influence there?
Dowson: I think that Khrushchev was not forced into this agreement at all. Khrushchev's always been for it, There's no doubt in my mind that the Soviet government under the Khrushchev leadership is for a test ban. They are for nuclear disarmament, I believe the record shows this indisputably. In my opinion the responsibility for the situation the world has been faced with over the last period -~ the intensive cold war =-- lies at the foot of Wall Street and the American State Department. I'm certainly glad that this treaty is going to be signed and I'm now looking forward to the Canadian people mobilizing massive support behind the demand that nuclear arms be withdrawn from Canadian soil, That's the next move: that we want to see carried out in this direction,
mS Few
.. On the Sino-Soviet. dispute and on the question of Trotskyism - in the — Soviet Union: I would say that the situation inside the Soviet. Union shows that Trotskyism is on a great wave of development in the Soviet Union. That's what this is about, The big pressure that's developing on the Khrushchev leadership. could be called, in general, Trotskyist -- in the sense that itts not for the restoration of capitalism -- not at all == it's for the strengthening of the economic situation in Soviet society and for the development of working-class democracy, That's the big direction of the forces in Soviet society today. So Trotskyism is an extending force,
Now one other point that you have raised on the Sino-Soviet dispute, I might add with regard to the positions put forward by the Chinese -they're not for nuclear war either. Nothing that they did or said pressed Khrushchev into this signing. The Chinese don't want a nuclear war. To say they do is a distortion of their position -- a malicious distortion of their position, Moscow's Charge
Wilson: I think there are some statements very definitely made by leading Chinese Communists and made to the Soviet Union, if the reports we are getting are at all correct, Khrushchev is. quoted as having charged this, He has produced a letter which was widely distributed and shown to newsmen to the-effect that the Chinese Communists apparently believe -~ itts a very cruel. sort of belief -- that a nuclear war could only result in the complete déstruction of ‘the capitelist state. It would leave enough Chinese and, presumably, Russians alive to create a new Communist state on the ashes of the old world.
Dowson: That's quite a different thing from say ing you want a nuclear wa T would say that is an erroneous position, This is a view that's bean expressed by the Chinese. I've seen it in Folens Review and I would say that this is a false position that they have pu orward, It under= estimates the tragedy that would come with’ a nuclear war, And, of course, it's absurd to say*that a nuclear war will destroy one sector of the world and not another. So this position is a weak one =- a poor formulation. But you see it's quite different from saying they want a nuclear war.
The dispute here is a question of whether we should support the unfolding colonial revolution, This is one of the big issues of dispute between the Soviet government and the Chinese government. The Communist party of China says that we have to identify ourselves with the developing colonial world -- we have to give aid to it. Khrushchev has tried to put the damper on it, suggesting that if the colonial revolution moves forward the American imperialists will nuclear~bomb it. Hets being charged with being a nuclear blacknailer.
Well, the Chinese correctly point « out that ; nobody" s going to be able to stop the colonial revolution. It's not controlled by China or by the _ Soviet Union. It comes from forces that are at work in the colonial world,
The Chinese have some positions which are. poorly thought out, which are somewhat euphoric, you might say. But I'd say their position on the question of the path to power in the capitalist world, their position on
the cause of war, on the nature of imperialism is substantially close to orthodox Marxism, There's many parallels to the Trotskyist viewpoint in the Chinese position. oe
uestion (taken over the telephone): [This question was a long and involved one, suggesting among other things that socialism aims to impose government ownership of everything, | ae
Dowson: We are not interestediin strengthening some anonymous and removed government, In Algeria,*what the government did in Algeria with regards to the three million.acres, it didntt say, "We own it and we are telling you what to do." They said, "We have okayed -- we have approved the fact thet you peasants of Algeria, you workers of Algeria, are now moving:in on this property and that you are now operating it. We agree,"
You see, nobody owns this property. Neither the persons who work on it nor the government. It is owned by all, collectively. And that .is the objective of socialism, eee
TWO PAMPHLETS TO SEND FOR
From Toronto we have received two attractive pamphlets which have just been published by The Workers Vanguard.
i The one is "The Communist Manifesto Today," the introduci tion written by Leon Trotsky in 1937 to the famous document i ? that is often considered to mark the birth of the Marxist i movement, The 14-page